What others think of your Laptop? :: battery stays in all the time or not?


	battery stays in all the time or not? I run my laptop +90% of the time on AC. - rarely on battery power. I have charged the battery and removed it while running AC. what is the opinion of the group regarding this method? My thinking is that the fewer times it is subjected to even a partial recharge, the better it is for the battery. The only drawback I can see is during those rare occasions of a power failure.. Dave. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com "Dave" <sylnd@yahoo.ca> wrote in message news:46434477$0$16360$88260bb3@free.teranews.com... >I run my laptop +90% of the time on AC. - rarely on battery power. > I have charged the battery and removed it while running AC. > what is the opinion of the group regarding this method? > My thinking is that the fewer times it is subjected to even a partial > recharge, the better it is for the battery. > The only drawback I can see is during those rare occasions of a power > failure.. I do the same thing. A small UPS can be had for around $20 that will solve the power failure problem. -----------------------------------------------Reply----------------------------------------------- The consensus is that you are doing the right thing. Leaving a battery in place in your situation tends to destroy them in 2 years +/-. [And I service laptops and I see this a lot]. My only other comments are: 1. The battery does need some "exercise" every 2-3 months, and the manufacturers all say that Lithium ion batteries store best at about 60% rather than full charge (however, I have not observed a significant difference in that regard). 2. Consider getting a low-end UPS (350VA or so, about $30) to protect against power failures while using the laptop. It's still cheaper ... a LOT cheaper ... than a $200 battery. - Hide quoted text - Dave wrote: > I run my laptop +90% of the time on AC. - rarely on battery power. > I have charged the battery and removed it while running AC. > what is the opinion of the group regarding this method? > My thinking is that the fewer times it is subjected to even a partial > recharge, the better it is for the battery. > The only drawback I can see is during those rare occasions of a power > failure.. > Dave. - Hide quoted text - olfart wrote: > "Dave" <sylnd@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > news:46434477$0$16360$88260bb3@free.teranews.com... >> I run my laptop +90% of the time on AC. - rarely on battery power. >> I have charged the battery and removed it while running AC. >> what is the opinion of the group regarding this method? >> My thinking is that the fewer times it is subjected to even a partial >> recharge, the better it is for the battery. >> The only drawback I can see is during those rare occasions of a power >> failure.. > I do the same thing. A small UPS can be had for around $20 that will solve > the power failure problem. In my experience power failure comes from things like tripping over the cable to the laptop, or on an older laptop a loose fitting barrel connector. In these cases a UPS is of no help. -----------------------------------------------Reply----------------------------------------------- "Salvador Freemanson" <s@gohome.com> wrote in message news:46438ca0$0$24924$426a34cc@news.free.fr... - Hide quoted text - > olfart wrote: >> "Dave" <sylnd@yahoo.ca> wrote in message >> news:46434477$0$16360$88260bb3@free.teranews.com... >>> I run my laptop +90% of the time on AC. - rarely on battery power. >>> I have charged the battery and removed it while running AC. >>> what is the opinion of the group regarding this method? >>> My thinking is that the fewer times it is subjected to even a partial >>> recharge, the better it is for the battery. >>> The only drawback I can see is during those rare occasions of a power >>> failure.. >> I do the same thing. A small UPS can be had for around $20 that will >> solve the power failure problem. > In my experience power failure comes from things like tripping over the > cable to the laptop, or on an older laptop a loose fitting barrel > connector. In these cases a UPS is of no help. so then use your $200 battery all the time. "You pays your money and you takes your choice" -----------------------------------------------Reply----------------------------------------------- My Dell E1405 is fitted with the extended (8.5 hours spec, 7.5 hours in reality) battery, which is about $75 incl shipping on eBay. I find it a great luxury to use it on my lap without a power cable. And, there have been times when I got stuck somewhere and either read a book or watched a movie while waiting. If the difference is a new battery more often, the amortized cost is insignificant compared to the convenience. -----------------------------------------------Reply----------------------------------------------- Hey, like the man says, you pays your money and you takes your choice. It's your battery and your money. - Hide quoted text - nunamus wrote: > My Dell E1405 is fitted with the extended (8.5 hours spec, 7.5 hours in > reality) battery, which is about $75 incl shipping on eBay. I find it a > great luxury to use it on my lap without a power cable. And, there have > been times when I got stuck somewhere and either read a book or watched > a movie while waiting. If the difference is a new battery more often, > the amortized cost is insignificant compared to the convenience. olfart wrote: > so then use your $200 battery all the time. "You pays your money and you > takes your choice" My solution is to use an old battery which can last for a few minutes when the laptop is on mains. I only use my new battery when I am mobile. -----------------------------------------------Reply----------------------------------------------- Hi Barry, I've got two hardly used Sony BP71 batteries which won't charge after leaving them out for about 4-5 months. Do you know of a fix? I guess they are too deep discharged. Jaap Barry Watzman wrote: > The consensus is that you are doing the right thing. Leaving a battery > in place in your situation tends to destroy them in 2 years +/-. [And I > service laptops and I see this a lot]. > My only other comments are: > 1. The battery does need some "exercise" every 2-3 months, and the > manufacturers all say that Lithium ion batteries store best at about 60% > rather than full charge (however, I have not observed a significant > difference in that regard). [...] -----------------------------------------------Reply----------------------------------------------- "jaap" <f@xs4all.nl> wrote in message news:4646d805$0$12424$e4fe514c@dreader15.news.xs4all.nl > Hi Barry, > I've got two hardly used Sony BP71 batteries which won't charge after > leaving them out for about 4-5 months. Do you know of a fix? I guess > they are too deep discharged. > Jaap Yes, the charger will refuse to charge too low Li-Ion batteries. This is a safety thing. As overly discharged Li-Ion can explode. -- Bill -----------------------------------------------Reply----------------------------------------------- BillW50 schreef: > "jaap" <f@xs4all.nl> wrote in message > news:4646d805$0$12424$e4fe514c@dreader15.news.xs4all.nl >> Hi Barry, >> I've got two hardly used Sony BP71 batteries which won't charge after >> leaving them out for about 4-5 months. Do you know of a fix? I guess >> they are too deep discharged. >> Jaap > Yes, the charger will refuse to charge too low Li-Ion batteries. This is > a safety thing. As overly discharged Li-Ion can explode. Hmm, it would be a waste to discard them because of this reason. Does anyone have access to the documentation on the 6 pin header on these batteries? I'd like to put 16 to 18Vdc on them through a current limiting resistor. Only to get a light charge so the notebook will address them properly. -----------------------------------------------Reply----------------------------------------------- I know of no way to fix that. Once lithium batteries discharge below a critical point, they are shot. Usually, it takes 1-2 years for a fully charged battery to get that low, but sometimes it can happen sooner. Occasionally, however, I've been able to get batteries back above the critical level by simply plugging them into a charger repeatedly (they charge for just a few seconds before the charger shuts down). In the end, however, even when apparently successful, those batteries never really held a good charge. - Hide quoted text - jaap wrote: > Hi Barry, > I've got two hardly used Sony BP71 batteries which won't charge after > leaving them out for about 4-5 months. Do you know of a fix? I guess > they are too deep discharged. > Jaap > Barry Watzman wrote: >> The consensus is that you are doing the right thing. Leaving a >> battery in place in your situation tends to destroy them in 2 years >> +/-. [And I service laptops and I see this a lot]. >> My only other comments are: >> 1. The battery does need some "exercise" every 2-3 months, and the >> manufacturers all say that Lithium ion batteries store best at about >> 60% rather than full charge (however, I have not observed a >> significant difference in that regard). > [...] FORGET IT. First, you can't do anything externally. There is an entire Microprocessor inside the battery, it has "control" of the battery, and it won't let you ANYTHING that could be dangerous from outside the battery. Second, the danger here is very real. Don't screw around with this, a lithium battery can turn into a fire-bomb. You could be looking at this: http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2006/08/dell_fire.jpg Almost instantly, before you can get away. - Hide quoted text - jaap wrote: > BillW50 schreef: >> "jaap" <f@xs4all.nl> wrote in message >> news:4646d805$0$12424$e4fe514c@dreader15.news.xs4all.nl >>> Hi Barry, >>> I've got two hardly used Sony BP71 batteries which won't charge after >>> leaving them out for about 4-5 months. Do you know of a fix? I guess >>> they are too deep discharged. >>> Jaap >> Yes, the charger will refuse to charge too low Li-Ion batteries. This >> is a safety thing. As overly discharged Li-Ion can explode. > Hmm, it would be a waste to discard them because of this reason. Does > anyone have access to the documentation on the 6 pin header on these > batteries? I'd like to put 16 to 18Vdc on them through a current > limiting resistor. Only to get a light charge so the notebook will > address them properly. It's a series connection of cells and if not matched there will be one cell reversing polarity eventually. I guess that's what causing the deterioration of Li-ion batteries. In the good'ol days we had NiCads which didn't suffer from this problem as much (but from other problems). I kept a 1998 200MHz notebook, still going strong on it's original NiCad battery :) Will try the fiddling with the battery you suggested. Thanks. - Hide quoted text - Barry Watzman wrote: > I know of no way to fix that. Once lithium batteries discharge below a > critical point, they are shot. Usually, it takes 1-2 years for a fully > charged battery to get that low, but sometimes it can happen sooner. > Occasionally, however, I've been able to get batteries back above the > critical level by simply plugging them into a charger repeatedly (they > charge for just a few seconds before the charger shuts down). In the > end, however, even when apparently successful, those batteries never > really held a good charge. > jaap wrote: >> Hi Barry, >> I've got two hardly used Sony BP71 batteries which won't charge after >> leaving them out for about 4-5 months. Do you know of a fix? I guess >> they are too deep discharged. >> Jaap >> Barry Watzman wrote: >>> The consensus is that you are doing the right thing. Leaving a >>> battery in place in your situation tends to destroy them in 2 years >>> +/-. [And I service laptops and I see this a lot]. >>> My only other comments are: >>> 1. The battery does need some "exercise" every 2-3 months, and the >>> manufacturers all say that Lithium ion batteries store best at about >>> 60% rather than full charge (however, I have not observed a >>> significant difference in that regard). >> [...] Thanks for the warning. One starts to wonder if manufacturers build in 'deterioration' logic instead of making things more reliable. I certainly won't buy a Sony notebook again, that's for sure. 230 down the drain, tsk! - Hide quoted text - Barry Watzman wrote: > FORGET IT. > First, you can't do anything externally. There is an entire > Microprocessor inside the battery, it has "control" of the battery, and > it won't let you ANYTHING that could be dangerous from outside the battery. > Second, the danger here is very real. Don't screw around with this, a > lithium battery can turn into a fire-bomb. You could be looking at this: > http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2006/08/dell_fire.jpg > Almost instantly, before you can get away. > jaap wrote: >> BillW50 schreef: >>> "jaap" <f@xs4all.nl> wrote in message >>> news:4646d805$0$12424$e4fe514c@dreader15.news.xs4all.nl >>>> Hi Barry, >>>> I've got two hardly used Sony BP71 batteries which won't charge after >>>> leaving them out for about 4-5 months. Do you know of a fix? I guess >>>> they are too deep discharged. >>>> Jaap >>> Yes, the charger will refuse to charge too low Li-Ion batteries. This >>> is a safety thing. As overly discharged Li-Ion can explode. >> Hmm, it would be a waste to discard them because of this reason. Does >> anyone have access to the documentation on the 6 pin header on these >> batteries? I'd like to put 16 to 18Vdc on them through a current >> limiting resistor. Only to get a light charge so the notebook will >> address them properly. For the technically fearless: I've disassembled laptop batteries a few times and replaced cells with new ones that are typically of higher capacity than the originals. It's fairly easy to do, and there are a couple of guides online (one of which I contributed to). Just a few tools, an hour or so, and you can have an improved battery for less than half the cost of a replacement. There are several Asian sources for cells at much lower prices than published U.S. sources. I prefer "aw", who has a sort of store on candlepowerforums.com - reliable, incredibly cost-effective, etc. Using the same source and approach, it's possible to assemble an external set of cells that can operate a laptop and recharge the internal battery via the power jack. I have one that ran my previous laptop - a P4 3GHz - for six hours using 3.7V 18650 cells in series-parallel, and a regulator! It's a little tricky, and works only on those units that have a two-conductor power jack, but in some situations this is great to have. Just remember: a battery or cell, by definition, is packed with energy that can be released slowly to power an electrical device, or suddenly and explosively if you are not careful. -----------------------------------------------Reply----------------------------------------------- - Hide quoted text - Ike wrote: > For the technically fearless: > I've disassembled laptop batteries a few times and replaced cells with > new ones that are typically of higher capacity than the originals. It's > fairly easy to do, and there are a couple of guides online (one of which > I contributed to). Just a few tools, an hour or so, and you can have an > improved battery for less than half the cost of a replacement. > There are several Asian sources for cells at much lower prices than > published U.S. sources. I prefer "aw", who has a sort of store on > candlepowerforums.com - reliable, incredibly cost-effective, etc. > Using the same source and approach, it's possible to assemble an > external set of cells that can operate a laptop and recharge the > internal battery via the power jack. I have one that ran my previous > laptop - a P4 3GHz - for six hours using 3.7V 18650 cells in > series-parallel, and a regulator! It's a little tricky, and works only > on those units that have a two-conductor power jack, but in some > situations this is great to have. > Just remember: a battery or cell, by definition, is packed with energy > that can be released slowly to power an electrical device, or suddenly > and explosively if you are not careful. Appreciate your input Ike. Do the cells need to be matched (power capacity) to last longer, or are tolerances tight these days? -----------------------------------------------Reply----------------------------------------------- I have done this with Ni Cad and NiMH batteries, but I don't recommend it or do it for Lithium batteries. This is EXTREMELY dangerous, the laptop and the onboard microprocessor THINK that they know the characteristics of the cells, but when you have changed the cells, their information is incorrect and the results can be disastrous. - Hide quoted text - Ike wrote: > For the technically fearless: > I've disassembled laptop batteries a few times and replaced cells with > new ones that are typically of higher capacity than the originals. It's > fairly easy to do, and there are a couple of guides online (one of which > I contributed to). Just a few tools, an hour or so, and you can have an > improved battery for less than half the cost of a replacement. > There are several Asian sources for cells at much lower prices than > published U.S. sources. I prefer "aw", who has a sort of store on > candlepowerforums.com - reliable, incredibly cost-effective, etc. > Using the same source and approach, it's possible to assemble an > external set of cells that can operate a laptop and recharge the > internal battery via the power jack. I have one that ran my previous > laptop - a P4 3GHz - for six hours using 3.7V 18650 cells in > series-parallel, and a regulator! It's a little tricky, and works only > on those units that have a two-conductor power jack, but in some > situations this is great to have. > Just remember: a battery or cell, by definition, is packed with energy > that can be released slowly to power an electrical device, or suddenly > and explosively if you are not careful. Barry's right in that building a battery can be hazardous. However, friends and I have done it many times over the past decade, in nickel-metal-hydride and lithium ion, without problem. Apparently the intelligent management circuit doesn't depend upon a charge/discharge profile in ROM (which would be specific to the cells used), but adapts. That does NOT guarantee that you'll be lucky... -----------------------------------------------Reply----------------------------------------------- "Ike" <binarydot@gmail.com> wrote in message news:46479681$0$9877$4c368faf@roadrunner.com > Barry's right in that building a battery can be hazardous. > However, friends and I have done it many times over the past > decade, in nickel-metal-hydride and lithium ion, without > problem. Apparently the intelligent management circuit doesn't > depend upon a charge/discharge profile in ROM (which would be > specific to the cells used), but adapts. > That does NOT guarantee that you'll be lucky... There are professionals who do this all of the time. This isn't one of them, but I found it on Google. I can't say if they are 100% correct or not. http://www.electronics-lab.com/articles/Li_Ion_reconstruct/index.html -- Bill -----------------------------------------------Reply----------------------------------------------- "Barry Watzman" <WatzmanNOS@neo.rr.com> wrote in message news:46472738$0$9897$4c368faf@roadrunner.com... >I know of no way to fix that. Once lithium batteries discharge below a >critical point, they are shot. Usually, it takes 1-2 years for a fully >charged battery to get that low, but sometimes it can happen sooner. > Occasionally, however, I've been able to get batteries back above the > critical level by simply plugging them into a charger repeatedly (they > charge for just a few seconds before the charger shuts down). In the end, > however, even when apparently successful, those batteries never really > held a good charge. You are lucky. The chemistry of Lithum ion batteries is such that when the charge state has dropped low enough (a little less 3.0 volts per cell), copper is thrown out of the electrolyte which coats the internal structure of the cell. This provides an alternative discharge path. If there is enough of this copper, it can create a discharge path that will cause the cell to rupture and explode. This is why chargers are set up not to charge overdischarged batteries. There is no means by which the copper can be drawn back into the chemistry. Since the copper deposition is a time and temperature related phenomenon (not to mention a few other variables), it is often possible to recover an over discharged battery that been in this condition for a short time only (not more than a few days). The battery can be recovered by passing a small charging current to bring the voltage above 3.2 volts per cell. The battery can then be charged normally, but this should be done in a location where there is nothing that you would like to see destroyed within 6 feet of the battery. Leave the charged battery for 24 hours in this location. After that, normal use can be continued, but expect the battery to self discharge faster than normal. Many battery constructions have internal circuitry to prevent even this remedial technique. -----------------------------------------------Reply----------------------------------------------- "jaap" <f@xs4all.nl> wrote in message news:46472da5$0$12430$e4fe514c@dreader15.news.xs4all.nl... > It's a series connection of cells and if not matched there will be one > cell reversing polarity eventually. I guess that's what causing the > deterioration of Li-ion batteries. In the good'ol days we had NiCads which > didn't suffer from this problem as much (but from other problems). I kept > a 1998 200MHz notebook, still going strong on it's original NiCad battery > :) > Will try the fiddling with the battery you suggested. Thanks. In multiple series cell constructions (and in many cases series/parallel), the battery internal electronics will (or should!) monitor the individual cells. The monitor should prevent the entire battery from being charged if any cell falls below 3.0 volts. Similarly, it ends the discharge when any cell falls below 3.2 volts. - Hide quoted text - > Barry Watzman wrote: >> I know of no way to fix that. Once lithium batteries discharge below a >> critical point, they are shot. Usually, it takes 1-2 years for a fully >> charged battery to get that low, but sometimes it can happen sooner. >> Occasionally, however, I've been able to get batteries back above the >> critical level by simply plugging them into a charger repeatedly (they >> charge for just a few seconds before the charger shuts down). In the >> end, however, even when apparently successful, those batteries never >> really held a good charge. >> jaap wrote: >>> Hi Barry, >>> I've got two hardly used Sony BP71 batteries which won't charge after >>> leaving them out for about 4-5 months. Do you know of a fix? I guess >>> they are too deep discharged. >>> Jaap >>> Barry Watzman wrote: >>>> The consensus is that you are doing the right thing. Leaving a battery >>>> in place in your situation tends to destroy them in 2 years +/-. [And >>>> I service laptops and I see this a lot]. >>>> My only other comments are: >>>> 1. The battery does need some "exercise" every 2-3 months, and the >>>> manufacturers all say that Lithium ion batteries store best at about >>>> 60% rather than full charge (however, I have not observed a significant >>>> difference in that regard). >>> [...]